tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post1882120973531719431..comments2023-10-15T08:40:12.715-05:00Comments on Interdisciplinary World: Free Trade in Ancient GreeceTroy Camplinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-45793628821261586062014-01-24T16:37:01.581-06:002014-01-24T16:37:01.581-06:00Note I was specifically responding to Kling and hi...Note I was specifically responding to Kling and his claims. <br /><br />If the poor in the U.S. were to take up the life style of humans 30,000 years ago, they would be far, far, far wealthier versions of those people. Wealth does eliminate poverty -- but the wealthier we get, the more we move the goal posts. <br /><br />Humans have always fought wars. Chimpanzees fight them. The nature of war has changed over time, and differs depending on the societies in question, is all. But saying humans haven't always fought wars is like saying people haven't always engaged in trade because capitalist trade is a recent development. Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-8836057851194211342014-01-24T16:22:28.548-06:002014-01-24T16:22:28.548-06:00I was a bit surprised to hear you claim that some ...I was a bit surprised to hear you claim that some generalised class of 'academics' denied that the ancient Greeks traded produced goods rather than those obtained from tribute or plunder. All the academic books I've read on the subject emphasise the fact that the Greek city states are well known for their large scale trading activities. The Athenians had extensive trade links with communities around the Black Sea for instance with whom they traded oil for wheat. Since then, trade has waxed and waned over the centuries depending on time, place and circumstance.<br /><br />The statement that poverty 'is the natural state for humans,' is as surprising, as it is both vague and over generalised. Ethnographic studies show that many modern band hunter gatherer populations who are the remnants of very ancient egalitarian cultures that once covered much of the tropical regions of the planet meet their needs very adequately. To be sure, they do not have access to the vast array of consumer goods that are available to those of us who can afford them in our modern capitalist cultures, but poverty is relative to need. They see themselves as living in conditions of abundance and not scarcity. Marshall Sahlins went so far as to refer to hunter-gatherer kinship networks as 'the original affluent societies.' Though this characterisation was intended polemically it still contains a great deal of truth. <br /><br />Wealth increased with advances in technology, productivity and the social relations that developed from them. But the wealth of a society does not eliminate poverty. Many very wealthy societies including our own contain a vast a mount of poverty. In 14th century England constant famine and plague decimated the population. The average life expectancy from birth at this time has been estimated at 17. You lived longer if you were wealthy, or for a shorter span if you were not. And that figure of 17 was greater than for the cities of Liverpool and Manchester in the UK in the early 19th century in the early days of the industrial revolution and the factory system. <br /><br />And though markets existed, they were mostly not free. The earliest markets as well as the earliest forms of coined money we know of were creations of the Lydian state (possibly for military purposes.) The Greek Agora and the Roman Forum which emerged later, consisted of an open space for market trading flanked by government offices, testifying to the close relationship in both societies that existed between the institution of the market and the state. And throughout the Middle Ages and into the modern times control of markets was almost universal in Europe.<br /><br />Human beings have not always fought wars. And modern warfare which is a commercially organised affair whose logistics require a vast amount of conscious and premeditated organisation cannot be equated to social aggression among chimpanzees. Once again, propertlyless, egalitarian band hunter gatherers with their long histories, live in profoundly unwarlike forms of society. And that is largely because they lack private property. Without private property there is no possibility of hierarchies developing among them, and they therefore lack the ability to wage organised warfare. Pinker has already had to acknowledge that his early estimates of death through warfare are unreliable since he has confused hunter gatherer bands with other forms of social/economic organisation.Hudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02014232775653261716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-60592944953142957012008-04-11T19:15:00.000-05:002008-04-11T19:15:00.000-05:00I know quite a bit. One of my areas of expertise f...I know quite a bit. One of my areas of expertise for my Ph.D. was tragedy, meaning I had to learn a lot about the ancient Greeks, especially Athens. <BR/><BR/>It has to do with the fact that free trade is something humans have engaged in for a long, long time and should not be viewed as something new and unique to recent times.<BR/><BR/>Free markets did provide all but the last two mentioned. Poverty is the natural state for humans. Wealth is a much more recent phenomenon and it the result of free trade. Throughout the vast majority of world history, people have lived in poverty. As individual rights, including property rights, became more and more protected, there was an increase in wealth. <BR/><BR/>Insofar as free markets resulted in the incredible technology that has made people's lives much better than living in caves, they are indirectly responsible for WMDs, true. But they are really only an extension of the fact that humans have always fought wars (as do chimpanzees, btw) and have thus felt a need to engage in arms races. Fortunately, the worse the weapons, the fewer deaths as a percentage of population in wars. The only exceptions have been in Leftist regimes, where the slaughters have been truly devastating. Of course, take guns away from the Left and they will slaughter those who don't fit in with machetes or simply starve their people to death. One of the great things about countries with free markets is that over time they kill fewer and fewer people (hard to trade with and get rich from the dead, after all) -- as opposed to socialist countries, which tend to kill more and more people over time.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-56030779118893226412008-04-11T19:03:00.000-05:002008-04-11T19:03:00.000-05:00What do you really know about the ancient geeks?An...What do you really know about the ancient geeks?<BR/><BR/>And what has "free" trade in ancient geekdom got to do with todays quantum world of total interconnectedness, 24/7 electronic (media/TV/internet), instantaneous "communication", rapid mass transport, over-population and the consequent (looming) resource wars, more than a billion people living in slums, and a world awash with weapons of mass destruction which are capable of destroying all of life on this planet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com