tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post7034582356612009447..comments2023-10-15T08:40:12.715-05:00Comments on Interdisciplinary World: The Middle Way, Part 10 (Relationships)Troy Camplinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-25076871457973254552007-12-07T09:53:00.000-06:002007-12-07T09:53:00.000-06:00I'm glad you've been enjoying them. I believe, as ...I'm glad you've been enjoying them. I believe, as did Socrates and Plato, that dialogue helps one to get closer to the truth. The more dialogue that goes on here, the better.<BR/><BR/>I find Taoism to be a very helpful, insightful guide. It is what I needed to help me let things go when they needed to be let go. It helped me to see that I need to work with the current in all things, not against it.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-31828631465455081462007-12-07T00:31:00.000-06:002007-12-07T00:31:00.000-06:00I have found this discussion in the comments secti...I have found this discussion in the comments section as informational as the post itself. Thank you, Dr T and prarie gourmet for making the topic of relationships interesting. <BR/>Dr. T, I really enjoy your printed lectures on "The Middle Way." As one who applies the Tao to compliment my personal religious/spiritual beliefs, I appreciate how you put the Tao in perspective to modern life, and apply the teachings to your subject.RevJimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10197393011402035296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-45335639854695663932007-12-06T14:02:00.000-06:002007-12-06T14:02:00.000-06:00Let me refer you to the quote I gave of one of Cha...Let me refer you to the quote I gave of one of Chavez's supporters, in regards to you last statement.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-7983854799785738452007-12-06T13:42:00.000-06:002007-12-06T13:42:00.000-06:00I believe that all relationships are equal once th...I believe that all relationships are equal once the "contract" has been fulfilled. Until that time, persons are unequal until their desires are satisfied by the other. This give and take is found in all relationships.<BR/><BR/>I absolutely agree with you when government takes on a parent/child relationship. The implication is that the "subjects" do not have fully developed brains and need protection. From what I see and hear from most people, perhaps I am too optomistic about the masses. They seem so willing to submit to that relationship.Catch Her in the Wryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13052541966405145087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-58669793798022465572007-12-06T13:01:00.000-06:002007-12-06T13:01:00.000-06:00We probably don't actually disagree about children...We probably don't actually disagree about children and discipline, though there are obviously those out there who do see it as a coercive relationship in the sense you mean, particularly those in MA trying to abolish spanking on precisely those grounds. What I typically object to is the parent-child relationship being applied to the ruler-subject relationship, as liberals and too many conservatives are wont to do. The same way we parents treat our children becomes coercion when applied adult-to-adult.<BR/><BR/>As for the friend-friend relationship, I'm apparently missing something in your argument. Yes, one does provide something the other is missing, but your friend is doing the same for you. You are each equally missing something that the other can provide, and the two balance each other out (in mathematics, when you balance an equation, you make each side equal). I'm not talking about equal in an egalitarian sense, when you each bring the other down to the same lowest common denominator; I am rather talking about an equality that creates a balanced equation, that results in the creation of something greater in the combination of the two. This is how I feel when I am with my true friends, that I am a part of something greater than either one of us could be apart. Each is part of the yin-yang relationship, where each has part of the other, and together form a unity.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-40180138522229208262007-12-06T10:47:00.000-06:002007-12-06T10:47:00.000-06:00I disagree that friends are equal. All five of you...I disagree that friends are equal. All five of your listed relationships consist of equals, who are all human beings, but that is the only common factor. The deficiences within each human is what makes them seek contracts with others in all all those relationships.<BR/><BR/>A friendship is formed like any other relationship: a complementary contract fulfilling desires from both sides. I would not be "friends" with anyone who treated me as if I were ignorant, rich, or superior. Those are not the desires I am seeking in my friendship contracts. My friends are diverse because I find different people satisfy different desires in my contracts.<BR/><BR/>I also disagree that coercion is used with the parent/child relationship you described. The child's contract with the parent includes a desire to be protected (which desire the child is probably unaware because of his undeveloped brain). The child is exchanging his survival for the food, shelter, and protection that the parent can provide. The parent in turn is exchanging those things for love, companionship, or preservation of the species depending upon their own desires.<BR/><BR/>Coercion can only occur after the brain is developed enough to fully understand danger, or, in the case of children, beyond and outside the realm of protection(child abuse).Catch Her in the Wryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13052541966405145087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-26810149652478393402007-12-05T17:54:00.000-06:002007-12-05T17:54:00.000-06:00Certainly lack of coercion is one dimension, but i...Certainly lack of coercion is one dimension, but it's not the only dimension (see my previous posting in The Middle Way where I talk about health and the holy). If we are talking about a relationship between two adults, those should of course be non-coercive. However, things become a little less clear on that issue when it comes to parent-child relationships. If you have a small child getting ready to touch a hot stove, you will of course physically coerce that child to prevent them from burning themselves. You will also coerce the child to make them mind, so they will socialize well. This is part of proper discipline. When it comes to adult relations, then the coercive element must be removed. But overall I am talking about things like: men will generally be happier taking on masculine roles, and women will generally be happier taking on feminine roles, though the roles between any pair will of course be negotiated. I have some character traits some would consider to be "feminine," and my wife has some "masculine" traits -- but what's important is that we balance each other out well. WIth old-young, it seems to me that we would be better off respecting and honoring those older in our society than we do. It's a matter of convincing people to act this way or that, because it will make them happier and our society healthier. If we don't convince everyone, that's fine too, because we need variety to have a healthy society. I'm looking for better, not perfect.<BR/><BR/>Now, as for friends, let me ask you a few questions:<BR/><BR/>You have a friend richer than you. Would you like it if he treated you like you were poor?<BR/><BR/>You are rich and your friend is poor. Would you like for him to treat you like you're rich?<BR/><BR/>You have a friend who is much more educated than you. Do you want him treating you like you're ignorant?<BR/><BR/>Do you want your friends worshiping you for your greatness? <BR/><BR/>Do you want your friends treating you as a lesser because they are greater?<BR/><BR/>I have a Ph.D. and one of my friends only went to college for a year. When we're together, you would never know it about either one of us.<BR/><BR/>I always check to see who leaves comments, and I remembered leaving my comment on yours. I'm glad I went by, and I'm glad you checked me out.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-9747221471992114742007-12-05T15:44:00.000-06:002007-12-05T15:44:00.000-06:00The healthiest contracts are ones in which there i...The healthiest contracts are ones in which there is no coercion,use of force by any means,, in which each party is willingly satisfied without having to compromise their position. Are you looking for specifics?<BR/><BR/>I am not sure I understand your definition of "equals". Do you mean similar economic, educational, or status? If so, then I disagree. <BR/><BR/>By the way, I found your blog from your comment on mine, and I'm so glad I did. Your posts are very interesting and I enjoy the dialogue and comments from others. It's refreshing to find a more intellectual blog among the drivel.Catch Her in the Wryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13052541966405145087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-34858831898995046882007-12-05T14:38:00.000-06:002007-12-05T14:38:00.000-06:00Precisely. And when I say that the friend-friend o...Precisely. And when I say that the friend-friend one is one of equals, that does not mean that they are not complementary -- it is just the one people are more familiar with being between equals. My friends are all my equals, though we each contribute things the other(s) don't have -- thus, together, we are balanced. <BR/><BR/>Now, of course all of these are unwritten contractual agreements. I'm with you there. I'm just venturing some opinions as to what would make for the healthiest contracts.Troy Camplinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16515578686042143845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7910834.post-57057583561601616312007-12-05T11:29:00.000-06:002007-12-05T11:29:00.000-06:00I guess that I am so much a libertarian that I see...I guess that I am so much a libertarian that I see these 5 relationships as unwritten contractual agreements (trade) in which the complementary forces are being traded for a greater whole (as you describe it). i.e. wife trading meals & housekeeping for the strength of a husband.<BR/><BR/>I disagree that the Friend/Friend relationship is equal. I have found that the best of friends tend to complement each other, similar to good marital relationships. I use myself as an example: I am extremely shy, but most of my friends have out-going personalities. In exchange, my introversion offers a different perspective on matters that my friends seem to miss.<BR/><BR/>The "contract" relationship between parent and child is renegotiated many times as the child ages. As the child begins assuming more responsibilities for himself, the power on the parent side diminishes and becomes advisor.<BR/><BR/>A good teacher can trick unwilling students into an educational contract. He must offer something that is enticing to the student for them to complete the trade. Many times the students are unaware that a contract has been formed. Good parents do the same thing with their parent/child contracts (relationships). Children react with good behavior when their side of the contract is filled: i.e. love, understanding, listening, attention, etc.<BR/><BR/>Relationship contracts must offer each side something that they don't have, but desire. Problems only occur when one side is missing its contract consideration.Catch Her in the Wryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13052541966405145087noreply@blogger.com